Dore Science and Money
A quick heads up for a couple of blogs people may find interesting. Firstly Brainduck (”Psychology geek tries to explain a few things”) looks at some of the science of Dore. He has also been posting on the Doretalk forum on a thread called Always look at both sides of the story…. As Brainduck (or Psyduck as he is known on the Dore forum) is student of Professor Hulme at York and is critical of Dore’s research this is like a Christian volunteering to get in with the lions. Brainduck’s contributions are intelligent, informed and the very model of rational debate. Something that is often lacking on both sides of the debate. Brainduck also comments here on Myomancy.
Over on Gimpy’s Blog (”inane witterings and badscience”) there is an examination of Dore’s financial situation. There is also a thread about this on Dore Talk. Unfortunately the thread ends with “This discussion of Dore’s financial accounts is not appropriate on this forum. If anyone would like to discuss this matter further please contact Dore directly. All further posts on the subject will be deleted.”. This is a mistake by Dore
Back in December 2006 I wrote a couple of pieces on Dore’s Marketing (Part 1, Part 2). In it I suggest the creation of a forum called DoreTalk.com where “anyone can post” so that the “Dore Program will not only be whiter-than-white but will be seen to be whiter-than-white”. Its very flattering that a few months later, that is exactly what Dore did. However the staff moderating the forum have shot themselves in the foot by limiting discussions and threatening to delete posts. The value of DoreTalk for marketing Dore is that visitors can see Dore welcomes discussion and has a reasonable answer for any awkward questions. It allows Dore to appear (and be) an organisation that is honest and trustworthy. This is worth millions especially as Dore doesn’t yet have the scientific evidence to silence it critics.
The right response would of been to make a statement stating the Dore is in robust financial health and revealing a little bit more about the accounts. E.g. what is the nature of the large debt the company carries. This kills the debate and reinforces the image of Dore as an open and honest company parents can trust.
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February 13th, 2008
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Comments on: Dore Science and Money
I have experienced Dores unwillingness to listen to the other side, I have been refused access to the Dore Talk forum and the Yahoo forum.
I think the Dore accounts show a very healthy and profitable concern, which is not what Dore wants be to made public wynford claims to be running at a loss and funding it himself.
Posted by: Tom February 14th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
I don’t believe anyone is refused access to doretalk unless they were upsetting other users.I have been posting on there for a few months now and it is a wonderful place for help and support. It is not however, the place to discuss Dore’s finances or launch attacks on the parents that use the site.You must have posted something really bad Tom to be refused access, Psyduck has been very hurtful to other users but hasn’t been refused access.The Doretalk forum is a support forum and should be kept as such. Those of us with children on the programme need somewhere to talk to like minded people who understand what we’re going through and don’t need it hijacked by dorebashers.Psyduck if you continue to post in the same vein as your last 2 posts and remain supportive nobody will have a problem with you.
Posted by: dorebore February 15th, 2008 at 2:26 am
Ditto that Dore Bore. Tom, you hate the thought of The Dore Programme, why would you want to join a forum that is for the benefit of people doing the Dore Programme? We all know your views on the Dore Programme. Thats NOT what the Dore Talk forum is for. If people have found the Doretalk forum then I m pretty sure they will have come across your posts on every other forum you CAN post on.xxx
Posted by: eraina February 15th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
I also do not find it surprising that you were refused access to Doretalk and yahoo, and fully support the admin and mods in their final decisions. There are many venues that you can and have used to vent your position. The venues that you were denied are set up soley for the purpose of support, and indeed your input is not welcome there.
You have forgotten or dissed the fact that when you step into a public forum venue, you are entering there as a guest into the product of someone’s generosity and efforts (the very individuals who have set up the forum) so they do have a right to dictate who and who cannot post there.
It is not necessary for you to infiltrate every single venue with your viewpoints and negative information, as we are not so inept that we cannot find the information on our own if we so choose.
Psyduck has a bit of an abrasive yet enthusiastic nature, but does bring the correct information to the table, and seems to genuinely have the intent to learn and be open to knowledge of the alt therapies, seeks to understand, and is generally supportive and I do get the feeing that Duck has the interests of his/her future patients/clients, etc. at heart, and I applaud Duck for even taking an interest in these kinds of therapies.
Posted by: FrazzleDazzle February 15th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I agree with Dore bore that the forum should be left as it is a support forum for people like us to go and talk.
My daughter started Dore 4 years ago and back then there was no support forum only sites which told me why I should not do Dore. I went by my own gut instincts and never regretted that decision.
A band of us posted on our own forums which became our salvation. But we were never allowed to just learn and support each other, we were constantly judged by others.
Dore producing their own forum was finally a place we could call our own and to aid all those going through Dore without having the Dorebashers taking over.
There are many forums they can post on out there they do not need to try and judge us for our decision on the one and only forum we feel safe.
I do not want to know about Dores financial position If I did I would have looked on the site it originally came from. We needed a forum to learn and support us through Dore and that is what we got.
On a more serious note you are all bleating about how Dore should come forward on our support forum and let the world know what their financial details are. To whose benefit may I ask the Dorebashers who will have a field day and wouldn’t believe them anyway I know who the loosers would be us mothers and children.
So even though you all throw up your arms and shout foul I know that the forum is safe for the children and parents who need it and that is the way it should stay. Ellie
Posted by: miss ellie February 15th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
TOM I can now see why you were denied access to the Doretalk SUPPORT FORUM. I have just read the disgusting comment you made to Eraina (a wonderful caring, supportive person)on another thread. I think you have shown everyone what a nasty person you really are and the more forums you are denied access to the better. We could all do without your poison.
Posted by: dorebore February 19th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Bore, Eraina is one of the most venomous people I have ever come accross in my life, I see nothing caring or wonderful. She has thrown some horendous insults at me and other people who speak up about Dore, including complete lies, at least what I said was fact!
Posted by: Tom February 21st, 2008 at 12:19 am
She had two of her children go through the program.
I think she cares.
She never called anyone as venomous of terms as what you called her, Tom. Using language like that on a public venue took away any shred of credibility you may have had remaining. People don’t want to see that, even if they agree.
Posted by: FrazzleDazzle February 21st, 2008 at 12:47 am
Tom, what utter cr*p. I have had a lot of support from her.Why do you have such a problem with those of us that know Dore works? Our children are living proof. Yes we do get angry at people like you because the things you say could put other people off Dore. You could be denying them a chance to live a better life. You calling Eraina venomous just proves to me that you live on a totally different planet to the rest of us. I know which one of you I would go to for advice, the human one!
Posted by: dorebore February 21st, 2008 at 12:50 am
DoreBore, don’t worry, Tom is definitely NOT putting anyone off of doing Dore.
Posted by: FrazzleDazzle February 21st, 2008 at 1:28 am
Thank you very much Chris, I am truly flattered!
I must say I’m quite impressed not to have been deleted from DORE altogether by now. There’s a few questions that haven’t been answered, but in fairness they could have been a lot stricter about deleting anything that doesn’t ‘toe the party line’. The locked threads have been allowed to stand rather than deleted outright, & RoseM (staff) & some other members have at times engaged with the research rather than personal arguments.
Believe it or not, I can understand why some people don’t like me posting on DORE - which is why for the most part I have tried to stick to discussing things which other people raise.
It’s clear from some of the things posted that whilst many of the regulars are knowledgeable about the research background, people new to the forums will not necessarily be. I believe strongly that people should have all the information available to them before making a choice about whether or not to use DORE. I’m not necessarily trying to direct my comments towards people who have already committed to doing DORE - if some aspect of the intervention helps them then I am glad.
I do think that people considering a program which sells itself as an ‘evidence-based treatment for ADHD’ should know that the only published research on DORE for ADHD has had one participant diagnosed with ADHD in one trial, which was not designed to look at ADHD (Balsall Common). If the DORE marketing did not make such claims, I would have no more problem with them than with any of the dozens of interventions out there, but dishonest marketing to the desperate is not right.
I’m not sure why people find me ‘hurtful’. Arguing about fairly technical aspects of the research isn’t personally insulting, unless you carried out the research yourself. It is perhaps uncomfortable to have one’s views challenged, but I’m always up for discussing facts or interpretations, and many people seem happy to discuss research favourable to DORE. Suggesting that the research does not live up to the way it is presented is a criticism of the DORE organisation, not of those who choose to use their treatments.
If I was able to ask any questions I wanted on the forums, my first would be drop-out rates, since without these success rates aren’t very meaningful - if you are deciding whether to train for a marathon, you’d want to know whether 10% or 90% of people on your training plan finished it, before looking at how those who did finish got on. Chris, you’ve a reputation for being enthusiastic about their methods - why not try posting, and see if you get a satisfactory answer on drop-outs? It could help a lot of people to make a fully informed choice.
Posted by: Brainduck February 21st, 2008 at 3:53 am
lol@ tom…please direct me to the venomous insults i have ‘thrown’ at you…was it about taking up knitting? As for ‘complete lies’ I have told..that would be interesting to see too. please provide the link.
At least Brainduck puts forward an informed discussion…what do you have? Now that you have stooped to personal insults you have lost any credibility that you had (not that you much to lose) so why dont you come clean ‘tom’ and tell us who you really are and what your problem really is?…
Posted by: eraina February 21st, 2008 at 9:36 am
ps. tom…please provide a link to ‘the facts’ you have stated too..so far i can only see opinion…..
Posted by: eraina February 21st, 2008 at 9:41 am
Brainduck
Re: Drop-out rates.
These have long held my interest and I suspect they are high, 50%+. Its possible they are lower than they use to be because customers now pay upfront so they have no financial motivation for dropping out. When I did the program, you paid every at six weekly assessment.
I suspect the high dropout rate (assuming it is high) is down to the fact it is difficult to keep a training program up for a year. Especially with the return only starting to appear after some months. It would be interesting to compare Dore’s drop-out rate with fitness / diet program drop-out rates. These also require a lot of commitment and the benefits may be not be seen for some time.
I deliberately don’t get involved on DoreTalk. With Myomancy I have an independent platform where I can say what I like.
Chris
Posted by: myomancy February 21st, 2008 at 12:05 pm
If Dore treats its clients half as bad as it treats its staff then no wonder the company is loosing money
Posted by: xdorestaff February 27th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
The staff always seem more than happy to me. Perhaps they just treat the bad ones badly! If you really are ex dore staff then you will know the programme works.
Posted by: dorebore March 2nd, 2008 at 1:14 pm
There’s quite a long history of ex-dore staff who could share stories of the “bad treatment” they’d received. It’s a story yet to be told fully! Sales staff would appear to be “happy” it’s part of the persona of a sales person/caring professional. Yes, the programme does appear to work, BUT not for all. Dropout rates have already been mentioned. I experienced a side to Dore that was underhand and deceitful. The management went about beating their hairy chests and the idea of trying to be creative and play the drums would have been beyond the senior management!!!!!
Even if there have been some “bad Staff” it still doesn’t give anyone the right to treat them in a “bad” way.
In my work experience with Dore; the staff who were “treated” badly were those who challenged and stood up to the questionable behaviour of some of the management.
No doubt all with will be told in the future
Looking forward to the day when I tell my own story in full.
Posted by: Via March 8th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
DORE Australia appear to have suddenly shut down for financial reasons. The concerns Gimpy previously posted related to the UK, which suggests that it may be a wider problem.
Does anyone have more info on this?
I posted a request for info on DOREtalk, where a parent said that DORE Australia had gone into liquidation, but the thread seems to have been deleted?
Anyway, if anyone knows what’s going on please let me know, I’m happy to keep it anonymous if you’d rather. brainquack at gmail dot com.
Posted by: brainduck May 17th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
There is an official response on Doretalk now. the thread written by a parent wishing to join up has not been deleted it’s the “Very Annoyed” thread, and it’s still there for all to view.
Posted by: Lesley May 18th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
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